Nicole Wiz You are so controlled by your fear of what you call "socialism" that you can only worry about yourself and fuck the rest. You represent everything that is wrong in the US. "People die, deal with it"? That is just sad.
I can only assume that you can comfortably afford all that you mentioned. That you aren't one of 50 million Americans that remain outside the healthcare system. No? Too bad. Then you are just one more person that's only capable of voicing and repeating what the tiny and powerful minority wants you to believe.
Alejandro Matias Ravasio
My community college isn't paid for me, I pay it for myself. Schools in America are already socialized and look how shitty they are. So, yes, a person in Community College ought to understand this concept perfectly. And you made a logical fallacy with that comparison, congrats again.
Socialized healthcare has always been a failure in modern medicine. That's why when Canadian's get sick, they come down here. Er der. Why do you think so many Canadians protested against the socialization of American medicine?
Alejandro Matias Ravasio
Because we made a business out of it and because it's a booming industry, it provides jobs and the best healthcare in the world. Canada is begging people to go to college to be doctors, as are most of Europe, because they don't get paid enough for the college they have to go through. If you spent 200,000 dollars a year on medical school, you'd damned better be paid at least 80-100k a year starting off. When you introduced socialized medicine and healthcare into the mix, Doctors get paid less, nurses get paid less, and their work increases drastically. This happens and they get nothing except a pay deduction.
Also, as another issue, when you socialize healthcare like what you're talking about, the government goes farther into debt and is unable to provide the money they used to give for medical research, meaning that our healthcare quality goes down. Your suggestion implicates that quantity is better than quality. Yes, more people get treated, but the value of the treatment is significantly less. People all over Europe and Canada have to come here to America for life saving operations because of the research we conduct and innovate. This is because we've made it all pretty private.
And, also, you are clearly uneducated on the way our healthcare works. Because it's the introduction of socialized policy that is the reason that our healthcare costs so much to begin with. Hospitals aren't allowed to turn dying people down anymore, as you should know. Because of this, poor people get free healthcare. Now, they get a heart operation that would normally cost 2,000 dollars. They don't have to pay it because they have no money, so they don't pay it. All the cost of the equipment, the labor, and everything else = 2,000 dollars. SO, the next person that comes in and has money is obligated to pay 4,000 in order to cover the 2,000 that the last person did not pay, and will not pay. This goes on and on. If they just let that person die, then the operation would still be 2,000 for everyone. But because so many people go through the hospitals and get free operations for what should be very expensive, the next person MUST pay the difference in order to keep the hospital afloat. This is a socialist policy.
So, it is in fact socialism that has caused this problem, not capitalism.
Nicole Wiz Yes, because the a health care system that works around rejecting you when you have no insurance (which is, by no means, affordable for lots of people) and uses you when you do is a clear cut case of success, right? I mean ... USA has been using it for how long now? And you are booming socio-economically, right? Yes... I figured as much.
The problem is not socialized health care, the problem is trying to make a business out of it. It shouldn't be profitable, it should be accesible. A business should have a profit margin. Health is not (should not be) a business.
And I dare bet that Canadians go to the USA for care because they have the money to pay the ridiculous non-insured health costs.
This is not me saying it should be 100% free for everyone, for everything. But your old system was just ridiculously bad and unfair. You were either a hostage of Hospitals (which subject you to tests just to be able to get out more cash of the insurance company) or you were a Pariah, where the common policy is "stop the bleeding, patch him up, throw him out", disregarding most post-operation recovery processes.
Yes, you are right.
Nicole Wiz So ... let me get this straight ... you go to a community college and you don't agree with socialized health care? That' like protesting against McDonal's HighCal content in their food while slaming fistfulls of Burger King in your mouth.
You side with lobbys and exclusive health care while not being able to pay for "proper" (by your standards) higher education? Yes, you are completely right, I am the idiot here. I wasted like 20 minutes of my life.
Alejandro Matias Ravasio
That is flawed logic. Yes, lifespans are longer, this is true. This is due to free vaccinations. But a person is more likely to die in a Canadian hospital, and especially Cuban hospital, when under the knife for a serious operation. Or, they won't be allowed to get the operation at all. We're not arguing over life span. In fact, my argument is that that's a bad thing. After all, the population of Cuba is out of control, not to mention the fact that it's practically a dictatorship, so I find it funny that you bring them up as a basis for a way for the government to run. xD
And the government shouldn't pay, that's exactly right. It's not up to the government to care for the citizens, because then you have a controlling government. The more you take from the government, the more they own you.
I'm not arguing anymore because you don't understand American healthcare in the slightest. You clearly have only watched some Michael Moore movies and haven't conducted any real research on any actual point you're making. I also find it funny that a South American is arguing such a stupid, naive point. 'The world should be flowers and daisies and the government should just give the people all their money and then we can all live in a commune!'
Grow up and face the facts. Socialism is just a more controlling, overbearing Capitalism with less room for progress. You want everyone to live? You want the population to go up even further? Logically speaking, you're an idiot. Grats. People die. Deal with it.
Nicole Wiz Yeah ... except for the fact that Cuba has better health care system. And so does Switzerland. In fact, Cuba's life expectancy is higher than USA's: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html
I am not even going to bother aguing over how very fucking silly your view on health service is, considering that the fact that you observe Quality as a more relevant factor than Quantity is never going to make us agree.
A government has to assume responsability for its citizens, that's the whole point of it. If your idea of a government is that it should disregard a certain % just to ensure another percentage gets a better quality treatment, you either fail to grasp the reason why governments exist, or you are just a horrible, horrible person.
To provide a simple example of how your argument is just invalid: You say money not spent on poor people allows for more investment on research. That would be understandable if the main health problem right now in the world weren't food-related. Famine, eating disorders, etc.
Your very premise is just unagreeable with, because it assumes that the government shouldn't pay (or at least provide ways for the citizen to pay, without getting fisted in the process)
Socialized might not be perfect, that's a whole other discussion, but it sure as hell is a step forward compared to an exclusive system where you can pay for your basic human right and your next best option is to hope prayer is a good anaesthetic.
How could they train you to think otherwise, against all reason and humanity, is beyond me.