SO, your logic is that hundreds of years of tradition and teachings, mixed with leaders who are educated for 8+ years on their religion and are required to also do general education, who interpret the bible for a living, and are required to work as one unit as to prevent bias and radical thought < any individual who starts a church or just picks up a bible?
And people near wrong pastors DO NOT correct him. They follow him blindly. Thusly the Mormon church, the WBC, and the polygamist religions in Utah. Because people are stupid and not educated enough to understand the bible correctly. Just like citizens are stupid and cannot follow the laws and respect each other without authority. Man is smart, men are idiots.
And as far as divorce is concerned, gay marriage, and birth control- those have logical basis to them, if you cared to listen to my explanation. But, that doesn't mean we all follow them. My mother used birth control and my grandmother used it too, all raised Catholic. They did not confess for doing this, because they thought personally that there was nothing wrong with it. Our religion allows us to decide for ourselves what we think is right instead of just blindly following a leader who is preaching nonsense. Because of the way our religion is crafted, Catholics are more likely to think for themselves, whilst following the basic beliefs and traditions of the church. And you're quoting laws and doctrine from hundreds of years ago, anyway, which is why I think you're so uneducated on the subject.
We haven't believed in the requirement of child baptism in order to enter the kingdom of heaven in HUNDREDS of years, but because most Catholic-bashing christians don't educate themselves on any religion and just go off of why their religion hated ours in the beginning, I don't expect you to understand that. We think that if you're good and wonderful to mankind, you'll go to heaven. We accept people who doubt God, we in fact embrace doubt. Because doubt is what helps us not follow the Devil in disguise or idiots on a soapbox talking about the end of the world. But it's our faith that eventually gets past the doubt.
And you see no biblical grounding because some things in the religion aren't based off the bible, it's based off culture and tradition. Just like every other Christian religion, not everything comes from the bible.
And you calling the Pope as uneducated as Phelps, stating he doesn't know how to interpret the bible, and over all disrespecting him = bashing. You might as well start up on criticizing Mary to me as well, if you wanna get really insulting. >_>
Nicole Wiz the point i was trying to make is that there's nothing you can do to get to heaven. You have to accept Jesus' salvation. a person can be amazingly great at humanitarian things but still sinful, and that person can't get into heaven.
Do catholics believe that a person can get to heaven without believing in Jesus? maybe i'm misreading what you said.
"We think that if you're good and wonderful to mankind, you'll go to heaven" and "That it doesn't matter to Catholics who you are, who you worship, or what you do with your life- but if your good to mankind, then you are just as much offered to Heaven as any devout Catholic"
It might just be out of context but it looks like you're saying people who don't believe in Jesus can have eternal life.
Nicole Wiz but isn't that trying to earn salvation?
protestant religions tend to emphasize on de-centralization and equality. talking to the person in your church who stands up in front isn't a symbol of talking to God, talking to God is. But I understand the concept of being open about your sin.
Caring for other men is an act of worship and the result of the Holy Spirit acting in you. You don't get holier or less sinful if you feed orphans, you feed orphans because you love God and you love the orphans.
Nicole Wiz i looked back at my last comment to see if i had said anything particularly hateful. I said you didnt have biblical grounding for a hierarchical system. It's pretty inflammatory but I wouldn't interpret that as hate.
Jesus told his disciples to teach for sure but he didn't say they were above other men or intermediaries for forgiveness.
I'm glad the pope and the vatican council are well educated and experienced, but that doesn't mean they are any better at interpreting the Bible than anyone else.
Jesus came to die for our sins. That's why he came. It was the fulfilment of God's covenant and thousands of years of prophecy, not an "oh hey you guys didn't really get the whole thing about divorce right." He argued with the experts on the Torah but he focused his teachings on the regular people.
If a pastor reaches some biblically ungrounded conclusion and tries to preach things that aren't right, the people near him have to correct him.
Of course the Catholic beliefs don't seem super radical to you, you're used to them. A lot of them seem radical to me because I don't see any biblical grounding. I don't mean whether the bread at communion is literally or metaphorically the body of Christ, I mean child baptism and the whole process of being saved.
Nicole Wiz woa way to not be hateful
the point of christianity is to get to know God through Jesus and the bible describes God pretty well
there will always be poor interpretations of the Bible, even when the person doing the interpreting was voted in by other people interpreting it.
there's no governing needed. gathering and learning and talking about it is great but i don't need to ask someone to ask for forgiveness on my behalf. Jesus didn't go to the church officials of the day and tell them to tell the people not to use condoms or whatever, he went right to people and talked to them. throughout the gospels his disciples tried to set up an organised structure and a hierarchy and Jesus corrected them every time.
many beliefs and traditions of Catholicism have no biblical basis that i've been able to find (though some of them are the result of an interpretation of the bible from a strictly "how are we gonna use this to set up a heirarchy" statndpoint)
tl;dr the pope is just as bad at interpreting the Bible as me or the mean guy who runs the westborough baptist church. He doesn't need the added complication of all the poor interpretations of other popes over the last couple millenia
I don't know exactly what point you're trying to make with the last half, because that's what I pretty much JUST said. That it doesn't matter to Catholics who you are, who you worship, or what you do with your life- but if your good to mankind, then you are just as much offered to Heaven as any devout Catholic. This is not the case for most other Christian religions, who state non-Christians are all going to Hell (something that is mentioned in the Bible FREQUENTLY, but is very much not recognized by a lot of Catholics).
And it is a symbol of talking to God. It's because you have someone there, usually anonymous, who's listening to you and who is telling you to stop what you're doing. Because God does not talk to us in the same way man does, we use Surrogates as symbols, so we fool our minds into being less likely to sin because it's just as if we just confessed to God himself. We're talking science and psyche, here, not religion. It's simply a symbol and a mind-trick to try to get people to feel remorse for their sins.
Like how we use Statues and Pictures as symbols for prayer. We do not worship statues, we simply use them to know who we're praying to, so it seems more real to us. Catholics use a lot of psychological and scientific tricks to get ourselves to feel what we're doing more realistically. It's just the way our religion works. Similar to how if you miss a dead grandmother, or want to talk to her, sometimes you'll bring up a picture of her. You're not worshiping the picture, you're talking to it as an aid and for comfort.
You clearly don't understand what I've been saying this ENTIRE conversation. It's called TRADITION and CULTURE. Catholics are more than just a religion, just like Jews and Muslims are. We're a culture and a traditional one at that. We continue to baptize children out of tradition and the symbol of it.
We confess to PRIESTS (not 'preachers') because of both tradition and for mental and personal gain. By confessing to someone else, the idea is that you're more likely to be sorry for what you did and less likely to do it again. It's a simple psychological strategy. If I just make a mental note of sinning, and hide it from everyone, there's less of a chance of me really feeling bad for it or me not doing it again. If I tell a priest, it's a symbol for interacting with God and telling him up front (really, it's just verbalizing it to someone who isn't there to judge you) and you can feel clean and more likely to not do it again. Again, this is TRADITION and CULTURE that has us do this, not the bible.
And there is plenty of biblical basis for that. After all, many jews went to heaven, did they not? They weren't Christian. And Jesus preaches and stresses man-to-man care much more than man-to-god care. So, clearly, because Jesus's word was the last and only word to be taken in the Catholic Church (the old testament is not literal to most Catholics, but Jesus' New Testament is), we take it that being good to mankind is much more important than just simply praising God. THAT, my good sir, IS biblical. By being good and charitable to mankind and serving it, you are in fact praising God in a way by doing exactly what Jesus did.
Nicole Wiz i did say the pope was educated, but so were the Pharisees.
If Catholics don't believe in child baptism I'm very confused as to why infants are still being baptised.
I'm not sure how to interpret you saying you believe that if people are good they go to heaven. I haven't seen any biblical basis for that.
Confessing to preachers... why? what exactly (in the modern Catholic church) do people do that for?
That's because we believe that if you let people interpret the bible by themselves, they'll make up stupid shit. -Looks at the Westboro Baptist Church, regular Baptists, and various other idiotic, violent, hateful Christian religions- We follow the pope and the other Catholic officials because they go to college for years to learn how to properly interpret the bible. It's like bashing first world countries for having a government, moron.
Calling you an idiot doesn't mean I hate you. It just means you're an idiot.
This is idiotic logic that you have. Jesus assigned the first pope, if you're going to quote the Bible. He told the apostles to be the teachers of the Torah and of his teachings (thusly requiring the need to create the bible several decades later), to tell people what it really means and to spread his word, again assigning people so they may teach others how to properly interpret it. If you remember correctly, Jesus came to earth to correct the wrongs that the Jews were doing via wrong interpretation of the Torah and to save our souls from eternal damnation. So Jesus himself obviously thought that the average individual was not CAPABLE of interpreting the bible correctly on his own, or else why were the Apostles (or him for that matter) needed at all? The Catholic Church was founded both on the bible and on christian tradition- there are some things that we do that are not in the bible, yes. But that's the tradition and culture portion of the religion. Just like not everything Baptists do is in the bible, and not everything any Christian religion does is in the bible.
And the priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, deacons, nuns, monks- they're all college educated individuals taught in the way of proper interpretation of the bible, passed down through hundreds of years of traditional thought, but also trained to discovering new ideas through it. Also, because of the way the Catholic Church works, we are the most modern-thinking religion in the way that we can change and evolve the way we interpret things. This is why the church has stopped preaching hellfire and damnation and turned more to saying God is friendly and forgiving. We don't just stubbornly stick to 2000 year old standards, like some folks in the Protestant religions, but we do keep some of the old traditions.
Because of the way we're set up, if someone thinks they've discovered something new or something that should be taught, it isn't just SPEWED to the public. It's supposed to be put under consideration, evaluated, and voted upon with individuals in the Vatican who are educated and trained to do so, similar to what our elected officials do. This is why the religion doesn't have super radical ideas, because super radicals and hateful people won't get their word in with Vatican approval. It's similar as to why a republic is much more effective as a dictatorship. We essentially have a government that controls what the other churches say, so those individuals in charge of a church don't get to spread nonsense to hundreds of eager ears, like about how we should burn fags and make women serve men and hate blacks- our church prevents hate speeches like that. Or speeches about how other religions are wrong and we're right. It's like saying Michigan is stupid because its Governor has to answer to the state congress, federal congress, judicial system, and the President, and isn't just king of Michigan (like pastors and ministers can just make up any rules they want and preach that to individuals without answering to anyone.) The pope is like the President. The Vatican Council respect him and let him interpret some things, but not before they consider it and agree on it. He's not just allowed to do what he wants.
I'm not saying I agree with everything Catholics do. We are a religion that is strict in what it teaches, but not in what it follows. We don't all just spew out what the Pope says, but he's our leader and we respect him, and the Vatican. Most the time, other Christian religions are uneducated on other religions, basing their hatred of Catholics on hundred-year-old bias without much evidence to back it up, like you.
And the Pope is much more educated than the leader of the Westboro Baptist Church. Pope Benedict XVI graduated college and became a professor of Theology (meaning he acquired his masters degree) for 20+ years. He participated actively in the Vatican for decades, and spent his life learning the teachings of God before he became Pope, which isn't even a kingly position anymore than the President is. Phelps struggled to get his 2 year degree, which took him several more years to accomplish because of his continuous dropping out, then founded a religion he made up without any historical backing or teachings that were at all socially, morally, philosophically, or historically right.
You can not be catholic if you don't want to be, you can interpret the bible if you want- but don't bash my Pope with flawed logic and moronic statements with absolutely no backing. You're a bigot and a disrespectful, uneducated, soap-boxing asshole who needs to learn respect for other people's religions. I don't hate baptists, I don't hate the WBC, I don't hate you- but from my experience from other religions (I have been to several masses of Baptists, Lutherans, Nondenominational, Evangelicals, Anglicans, Mormons (with some trouble), I've been to Jewish services, and to Muslim services, Presbyterian services, and a few various other ones I can't remember right now), the Catholic church is what makes the most sense in their interpretations. If you don't agree, that's fine. But you don't see me talking shit about any of the other religions just because they do something different than me.
Here is a thought-
Instead of holding everyone else accountable for the plight of Africans, how about the Warlords put down their various arms and instead focus on building roads, schools, infrastructure, sanitation, running clean water, producing arable farm and crop lands, institute a merit based military and social structure, and democratic elections?
Why must EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD have to come to Africa's aid? Why can't they be the force for change for one in their own history?
Just a thought....
Funny thing: when John Paul II became pope he emediatelly gave away authentic relics and the pope's crown that has been passed down for century which helped making him the role model for the catholic church which led to a temporarily resurgence of the catholic church among youth by exposing the church to the outside world. I guess that wasn't preserved very long...
because people from Africa were raped from years of imperialism and more then likely still are...because changing warlords to "peaceful men" is the most silly nonsensical idea ever. When you are born into violence some people are just to far gone to be rehabilitated and why don't you go to Africa and tell them how easy it is to rally vs the local warlords before you spout such nonsense.